Episode 79: Cocoon Carbon: fixing the unintended consequences of decarbonization
The complete transcript for episode 79.
Molly Wood Voice-Over: Welcome to Everybody in the Pool, the podcast where we dive deep into the innovative solutions and the brilliant minds who are tackling the climate crisis head-on. I'm Molly Wood.
This week we're looking into a bit of climate tech irony how efforts to decarbonize one industry can sometimes create ripple effects that complicate decarbonization for another.
In this case we’re talking about heavy industry where we will uncover a surprising connection between steel manufacturing and concrete production. Both sectors are responsible for significant global emissions and are notoriously difficult to decarbonize hard to abate as some folks like to say.
Today’s guest is turning the lemon of unintended consequences into concrete lemonade. I don’t even know what I think I was doing there with that metaphor let’s get to it, shall we?
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so my name's Elliot Brooks and I'm the founder and CEO of Cocoon Carbon. And what we're really setting out to do is to enable these steel and concrete industries to decarbonize commercially in sync. And the way we do that is through leveraging the by-product or the waste material from steel production, enabling that to be used as what's known as a supplementary cementitious material. So something that can replace cement when making concrete.
Molly Wood
So you would, is that the in sync part? you would explain that one phrase hooked my brain. What do you mean by in sync?
Eliot Brooks
Yes, so it requires a bit of unpacking. the historic way of producing steel has been via the blast furnace and that's a highly emitting process. But critically for tens of years, we have taken the by-product known as blast furnace slag and that has been used as a supplementary cementitious material in concrete making. So these industries have always been linked and now
As the steel industry decarbonizes, the main method of doing that is switching over from the blast furnace, which is a highly emitting process, to using electric arc furnaces to produce steel. So, steel from this route is expected to grow by 200 % up to 2050. We already produce a huge amount of steel, so over 70 % of steel in the US comes from the electric arc furnace. But this by-product,
of steel slag rather than blast furnace slag cannot today be used as a cementitious material. So effectively, steel's pursuit of net zero has led to a reduction in the supply of critical low carbon materials that concrete uses to decarbonize.
Molly Wood
fascinating. And of course, we know that concrete and concrete production is massively, I don't know, detrimental. It is massively detrimental and really, really hard to decarbonize. So you're saying we like by fixing one problem, we potentially risk exacerbating another and that's where you're going to swoop in.
Eliot Brooks
Exactly.
Eliot Brooks
Exactly. So it's reconnecting the circularity between these two industries. And I think as you say, concrete makes up 8 % of global greenhouse gas emissions, still makes up around 7%. And when you look at the decarbonization structures of both cement manufacturers, which cement makes up 90 % of the emissions associated with concrete, and the decarbonization structures of concrete producers, the number one lever they have
is leverage and maximize use of low carbon, suppler and true cementitious materials. So that's blast furnace slag and it's fly ash. So blast furnace slag obviously comes from blast furnaces, fly ash comes from coal plants. So we're shutting down coal plants, we're retiring blast furnaces. So that the demand for these materials is jumping up hugely and the supply is now falling in the Western Northern hemisphere. So by reconnecting these industries, by working with this kind of growing
emerging feedstock of steel slag, we can reconnect them and enable those decarbonisation strategies to coexist.
Molly Wood
Right. I'm feeling like I want to make some net zero comment about the unfortunate net zero outcome of the imbalance at the moment. But how do you know this? And what made you target this industry and this problem specifically?
Eliot Brooks
You
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so my background's in completely different sector. So I built a diagnostics business in the UK, scaled that over the last seven years. And eventually after the of craziness of the pandemic had settled down and had a chance to reflect, decided I wanted to get back to building a business and to do that with the angle of solving the climate crisis. And through that journey of discovery, met one of my co-founders, Dr. William Knapp, whose PhD was all around looking at how
as a consequence of the energy transition and the pursuit of net zero, industrial waste streams were changing. And he spent a lot of time looking at steel slag in particular and what kind of use cases you could have for it, how you could valorize it. So that was really the genesis of the idea.
Molly Wood
And and now tell me about the solution. It's kind of, it is modular. It works with existing processes, which I love, but just sort of, you know, talk me through the actual product that was born out of this understanding. Also, I just want to call everybody, by the way, steel slag. Like, is that just an awesome insult or is it just me? It's kind of great.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, sure. So without wanting to...
It depends where you're from. mean in the UK you have to be a bit careful with that word, but yeah. Yeah, so I can spend my time kind of getting awkward looks if I'm in a public setting talking about what Cocoon does. Yes, be careful. So yeah, so we were focused on still slack. So without wanting to get too technical.
Molly Wood
really? Okay, thanks. Good to know.
Molly Wood
Good to know.
Eliot Brooks
big difference between blast furnace slag and steel slag is its chemistry and so existing granulation technology which rapidly calls blast furnace slag enabling it to be used as a cementitious material doesn't work on steel slag because of its chemistry. So we've come up with an EAF steel slag exactly. So we've come up with a
Molly Wood
On EAF steel slag, mean? EAF slag. OK, got it. So it comes out different from a blast furnace than from an electric arc furnace. Yep.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, they're very different. And the main difference is the really high iron oxide content you have in the material. That's the kind of biggest challenge presented by the difference in the chemistry. And so our solution looks to overcome that by one, manipulating the chemistry of the slag whilst it's molten, and two, then rapidly cooling it faster than granulation technology can, leveraging our kind of proprietary hardware that we've built for this cooling method.
such that you then form a glassy or cementitious material at the other end. And as you say, so we're building these modular units so we can scale the number of units up to cater for the quantity of steel slag being produced at the steel mill and process them in the slag pit. So we're integrating into existing operations for managing this waste. So it's typically tapped, transported from a furnace and tipped onto the ground.
in the pit and we're saying put our units in there and we'll consume and process that slag instead of tipping it onto the ground.
Molly Wood
Got it. Which is a huge, as we know, huge, that's a major adoption benefit. Like over and over and over you see solutions that require constructing a whole new plan. And that's very often a non-starter.
Eliot Brooks
Well, that was exactly it when you also go and talk to the still plants. Their core business is producing still. It's not this by-product. It's necessary, but consequence that they don't really want to have to deal with. So if we were trying to deploy a plant next to that furnace, that's kind of a big issue for them.
You don't want to do anything that risks disruption to their core business. So that's why from the start, we've been looking at how we design this to be integrated into these existing waste handling or slack handling processes.
Molly Wood
Right. And then are there benefits to a steel mill if they, you know, to that company, if they adopt this solution, I would imagine there's gotta be some virtuous cycle to then saying, you know, we're turning around and using this like for a good purpose.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, absolutely. So again, to the point on how can you make this as easy as possible for the steel mill to say yes, the model we're pursuing is we'll cover the capex, you just provide the feedstock and we'll give you a rev share on the SEM generated. So there's an immediate ROI for them at the point that we're kind of commercial scale. So we're really trying to make it as easy to the steel plant to say yes, given, you know, this is heavy industry we're talking about.
rightly cautious, safety is a priority. You know, you've got to really think about all of these things in terms of how you can make them move as fast as they're comfortable moving.
Molly Wood
and then you sell the material to cement makers. So you have like a little bit of a dual sales situation happening here.
Eliot Brooks
We can sell it either... Yeah, so they secure the feedstock and then produce the material and sell that. So we can sell to cement manufacturers who might blend the material with ordinary Portland cement and sell a slag cement as it's known. Or we can sell it direct to the ReadyMix concrete producers. they can substitute our product, well, substitute cement with our product at the point of making concrete.
Molly Wood
Got it.
Eliot Brooks
So there's a couple of angles and different volumes with each route to market. And the value pops slightly different for each of them as well.
Molly Wood
And then how does the, with the recognition, I wanna talk about sort of where you are in the process. So with the recognition that you are early, what is the price comparison of your product versus other cementitious materials?
Eliot Brooks
Mm-hmm
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so the whole strategy here is produce a product that performs comparative to existing products on the market and is therefore priced comparatively. So we're really trying to leverage the fact that there's this existing value chain already in the steel industry. It's been around for, as I say, probably 40, 50 plus years actually. And so we know how the value of the product
kind of steps up in increments from the moment it comes out of the furnace through to it being granulated and then ground and then used either in cement or in ready-mixed concrete. So we're just trying to replicate that same value chain.
Molly Wood
So what is the, there's often this sort of question of like, why is no one else doing this? What is the hard part about this? Is it the science of turning this leg into a new material or it sounds like more likely it's creating this modular process?
Eliot Brooks
It's a combination of, this high iron oxide is one of the things that makes slag difficult to work with or still slag difficult to work with. The other is you get a bit more variability in the chemistry. So you might have a still slag with a 25 % weight iron content versus 40%. And so you really have to understand the chemistry to then fine tune the process to get a consistent product. you know, there's real trade secrets in that.
Molly Wood
Mm-hmm.
Eliot Brooks
coupled with the actual core IP and kind of pattern protected or pattern pending, hopefully feature protected stuff around the process and the actual cooling technology. So getting the cooling rates required for high iron oxide content steel slag to generate this cementitiousness are in an order magnitude greater than blast furnace slag.
Molly Wood
Got it, okay, so both. So it's all hard, it's all hard work. I mean, they call the, there's a reason they call these hard to abate sectors.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, I mean, I've come across things that sound infinitely harder, there are, you know, it is a, it's a hard challenge in that there's lots of pieces to pull together. And as you say, you're working with too hard to abate sectors, not one. So there's a bit around pace and how you get to market as quick as possible. But then the actual science is pretty hard too.
Molly Wood
Right, no big deal. So where are you now? It sounds like you have a partnership with the UK Steel plant. You've raised a good amount of money. What's the kind of status of the company right now?
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so we are testing our first prototype module at a steel plant in the north of the UK. So that's been ongoing since November. We're processing hundreds of kilos of material at a time. And we're doing that to not just generate material that we can get tested in concrete and show that we're adhering to the standards, but also to then prepare ourselves for an on-site trial at a steel plant later in.
later this year.
Molly Wood Voice-Over: Time for a quick break. When we come back, the economics of all of this aka how to make a cheaper cement product that everyone wants to buy and we try to figure out how to spoon up molten steel.
Molly Wood Voice-Over: Welcome back to Everybody in the Pool. We’re talking with Eliot Brooks of Cocoon Carbon about how to convince everyone to start adopting this technology.
Molly Wood
Great. And then what are the levers? I mean, there's hard to abate sort of technically and financially, and then there's just inertia. So what are the levers that, you know, it's encouraging to hear, for example, that the steel industry is moving to electric arc furnaces at such a high rate. What are the levers that get these two industries moving in this direction?
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, it's a great question. So on the steel side, I think in Europe more so than the US, electric arc furnace steelmaking is challenging because we have a bit more fluctuating energy prices and they're typically a bit higher than the US depending on which country we're talking about. So anything you can do to make that path to net zero more commercially viable is going to pull people in and get them interested. And then there's a
Molly Wood
So in this case, just to put a finer point on that, in this case, the ability to monetize that EAEF slag offsets potentially the higher cost of energy. OK.
Eliot Brooks
Exactly, yeah. Or the higher unknowns or uncertainties if you're deploying or operating an electric arc furnace. And now in the US, I guess it's more around just, you know, putting into the bottom line, it's already pretty well established electric arc furnace deal making and can this give them a competitive edge? But it's also an interesting one where on top of this transition to electric arc furnaces,
Molly Wood
Got it.
Eliot Brooks
What we're also seeing is this method of steel production known as DRIEAF. Lots of acronyms in this industry.
Molly Wood
Okay. Sure. Just keep him coming,
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so effectively electric arc furnaces have been used to remelt scrap for many years and there's not actually enough scrap in the world to meet the demand for steel production over the next 20 or 30 years. So we either need more primary steel coming from that blast furnace route or we can use what's called direct reduced iron ore, so specific type of treated iron ore that goes directly into that
electric arc furnace to then make primary steel rather than remelting scrap. And I mention this because as we see more more steel plants switching over to this or using more DRI mixed in with scrap, your yield of slag per tonne of steel jumps quite dramatically. So it's almost like the, again, this net zero journey is creating even more of this by-product and it becomes a bigger problem for the steel plant.
because they're managing more waste, means more space, means more silos, more capex related expenditure to manage that material. So if we can find an end use for it, they're more incentivized to take on the technology. And then...
Molly Wood
Right.
Molly Wood
Okay, so the incentives on the steel manufacturing side make sense. You can potentially get revenue, you you make money, make additional money, offset unknown energy costs. What about on the cement side?
Eliot Brook
Mm-hmm.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so for the cement manufacturers, you know, there's a relatively small-ish number of global players and obviously they are on their journeys where they're adopting a portfolio approach to get to net zero. We need more SEMs, we need supplementary cementitious materials, we need carbon capture, we need novel alternatives to ordinary Portland cement. And so this is one of the many things they can do, but critically it's one of the things that they can do in the very short term for
more immediate impact. So yeah, these materials already exist in the hundreds of millions of tons. We're not developing a new alternative to ordinary Portland cement that requires mining and a new feedstock. Like limestone is amazing. It's everywhere. It can be turned into cement relatively cheaply. And lots of these alternatives to ordinary Portland cement use different virgin materials that aren't as abundant or easily accessible.
Molly Wood
Hmm.
Eliot Brooks
So that's going to take time to kind of find these replacements for cement. So SEMs or carbon capture, which has lots of well understood challenges, the two kind of paths where they can get the most bang for their buck right now. And I guess when you look at SEMs, there's already a market price. It's well understood. They're affordable. They've got very low embodied emissions.
So for the cement manufacturer side, it's this kind of price meets net zero meets kind of demand of end customers. And then on the ready mix side, for every tonne product you, every tonne of cement you replace with our product, you're actually able to bring down the cost of your concrete poured because our SEM is cheaper than ordinary Portland cement. So all SEMs are, yeah.
Yeah, so they're discounted. Typically what you find is they're discounted versus the price of ordinary Portland cement. So it used to be that they were maybe 50 % cheaper. And over time that discount shrunk to around 10 % or maybe 30 depending on the quality of the product. So if you're a ready mix producer, if you can make these replacements, you can bring down your cost of concrete poured quite dramatically. And it's quite a commoditized
business and when you look at how tenders are won for concrete pouring in most places around the world it comes down to price and that is it. So if you can get supply of a novel low carbon SEM that's cheaper into that ready mix operator and they can bring down their cost of concrete they're going to have a competitive advantage in the market.
Molly Wood
Wow. mean, there's no, you really can't, you usually can't argue with cheaper. So like that's a win. Yep. yeah.
Eliot Brooks
No, yeah. I mean, how can we, you know, as we scale, will it always be, will it, will it initially be cheaper? That's something we're kind of figuring out that the OPEX of the kind of pilot plant scale and, you know, but in the future, like it's pretty clear where we're able to get to a point where it's priced comparatively to existing products on the market.
Molly Wood
Yeah, I mean, it sort of feels like I hate to say and even contemplate this, right? But I think we know that the reality is that there has to be a solution that is competitive, even absent net zero goals. And it sounds like that's like now at least, when will the competitive benefit outweigh the need for a net zero goal? Does that make sense?
Eliot Brooks
Mm-hmm.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah.
Molly Wood
We can't necessarily count. I wish we could count on those commitments, but things are changing fast, it turns out.
Eliot Brooks
I think they are exactly. And they'll probably continue to change around the world. I think the best solutions when it comes to net zero and solving the climate crisis are the ones that can get speed to market, that can scale, and they're affordable. And I think we've kind of talked about speed and scale in the past, but affordability is key because it drives both of those.
And so when we look at Cocoon and when we founded the company and right to this day, those three things we keep in the back of our heads and speed, how can we move heavy industry as fast as possible? How can we demonstrate technological progress as fast as possible? How can we develop modular technology and integrate into existing processes to get to market quick? Scale, this material was already produced in the hundreds of millions of tons per annum.
and all of the supply chains, all of the logistics networks, they already exist. This material is already being moved around all the time. And then lastly, affordability. You've got to give a reason for people to buy.
Molly Wood
And then what gets you to market as quickly as possible? No pressure. Me and your investors being like, how do you go faster?
Eliot Brooks
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's a question I ask myself every day. I think it's a combination of thinking smart about how you engage both sides, so the feedstock providers and the cement and other customers, the cement and concrete producers, how you develop the technology as well. think, you know, bringing this kind of modular approach in is really going to save a lot of
pain and scaling challenges down the line. We're just focused on proving the throughput of one module. And if we can do that, we know that we can scale those modules up or down to meet the volume of still slack coming our way. So it's how you engage with the market in clever ways, as well as how you approach your technological roadmap, coupled with some really hard work.
Molly Wood
Yeah, coupled with hustle as always. tell me a little, like feel free to geek out a little, like what happens inside the module? Like what does it look like? know, sort of walk us through that part of things.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah.
Eliot Brooks
I mean, like lots of people building modular technology, it's envisaged to be in a container of some sorts, or depicted to be so on the website. But no, it really will be something very similar to that. Effectively, what we're doing is... Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, kind of like a lot of... Yeah, you've seen it before. Yeah.
Molly Wood
Like a shipping container you mean when you say container? Okay, yeah, got it. Yep.
Totally, people build houses out of them or decarbonize heavy industry, like whatever you think is important people.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, I mean how many of those shipping containers going around the world right now have anything like that in them? I suspect it's very very small but no so effectively we're looking at overcoming this cooling rate challenge. We use that through a water-based method but it's effectively around how you can generate surface area fast to achieve the rapid cooling so
how you can increase that surface area of that molten material to then rapidly cool it without wanting to say too much because, know, of patent recently submitted and.
Molly Wood
Got it, right, okay. But in broad strokes, basically, you have this sort of like melted steel terminator product that flows out and you need to cool it down in order to be able to then do this next process of turning it into a material that can be mixed into concrete.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, so then you would dewater, dry, grind. I mean, this is all like off the shelf, industrial. Well, I say off the shelf, but it's all largely, you know, solved industrial scale processing downstream processing activities, which comes back to that kind of speed point as well. You know, you've got to leverage as much that's already proven at scale as you can, even if it's not the perfect design for what you're trying to do, just use it and come back to it later once you've actually solved the real
technical challenge around that front end of the process for us.
Molly Wood
It's funny, as we're describing this, it's sort of reminding me of conversations I've had about lithium from brine extraction and how like brine itself can be this really, especially like salt and sea brine. It's super gnarly and hard to work with and eats things. And it sounds like that is a little bit of what you're describing. Like you've got this material that is, how hot is it? Just, you know, give us like the, what are we talking here?
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, it could be when it comes out of the furnace, it's around 1,500 degrees Celsius. So it's hot. Yeah. And so we're, you know, in our lab. Yeah. So we're working with that material all the time in the lab, like remelting. Lots of our R &D is focused on remelting because obviously we've not been on site at a steel plant. So we're regularly remelting hot molten material to 1,500 degrees and then putting it through the system.
Molly Wood
Okay, yep, super dangerous.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, everyone kind of has that reaction. Yeah, you're more than welcome anytime. So all of the R &Ds in London, in the UK, and then we have obviously this facility up in the north of the UK that we're working with. And then the first kind of on-site trial in the US happening later in May, which I can't say where exactly that is, but a very exciting location.
Molly Wood
I know I'm like, can I visit? Where is it? Where are you based? Where is this all happening?
Molly Wood
Mm-hmm.
Molly Wood
That's very exciting. these are, with the UK plant and the eventual May location, are these still, it sounds like lab scale or will these be like field, you know?
Eliot Brooks
Well, it's yeah, it's kind of one module. So it was, and this is actually the one downside of modularity is it turns out consuming like if you're only going to prove one module and you've got this 28 ton pot of molten slag, there's a lot of challenge it has to go into like how you just get enough for that one module. Yeah, it's actually like been
Molly Wood
Right, okay, got it.
Molly Wood
Mm-hmm.
Molly Wood
A little? Right, it's not like you can put it in a funnel. Huh.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, exactly. Not when it's molten material like that. It's very specialist equipment and yeah, all kinds of challenges. that's actually interestingly been one of the more complex technical challenges is this like middle point where you're trying to solve things that you hopefully won't have to solve quite as delicately at scale.
Molly Wood
Right, but you still have to spend a lot of time on trying to figure out the eyedropper that can just pluck out a little bit of amount. Wouldn't that be cool? Yeah, totally. Hmm. Yeah, exactly. Be like, how can we work with this eyedropper idea? Okay, that's all yours. That's all yours. Now I'm an advisor. That's the extent of my technical skills here.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wish it was like that. That would be great. Yeah. I'll go in tomorrow and tell the team I've got this new idea.
Yeah, yeah. Well we did yeah there you go, place secured. we did it was funny actually, kind of early on we did pitch a still plant this idea of, and we had seen it done in a research environment, but effectively ladling out the molten slab from a pot into the system with, you know, what is effectively a long stick with a cup on it for lack
Molly Wood
Mm-hmm.
Eliot Brooks
a better way of describing it. And you know one of the early learnings is it might work in a research environment but a still plant is very rightly so health and safety conscious and yeah that was almost laughed out of the room.
Molly Wood
Yeah.
Molly Wood
Yeah, I could see that because the spoon is drippy. Anybody who, know, any you just tried to get sugar into a cup. Like, it's just, yeah. OK, I'm liking this eyedropper thing. Yep, this seems good. What else should people know about this or take away? Try hard problems, personally, is what I would.
Eliot Brooks
Mm-hmm.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah.
Eliot Brooks
Yep.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, well yeah definitely that. I mean it's challenging but rewarding. I would say that you know I think for us and many other companies out there this intersection of like how this path to net zero has knock-on consequences on other industries is a really really like important part of the puzzle.
and I think it's a really rich vein of ideation and potential ideas for new start-ups.
Molly Wood
Yeah, actually, I put a note in to ask you about other examples of places where there's this kind of, I mean, you know, when you throw a pond into a lake, there's a ripple.
Eliot Brooks
Yep, exactly. We've looked at a few without wanting to reveal too much because they might be future product ideas but you know there's kind of lots of changes happening in how we do mining of materials for instance and what we're mining of course so lots of opportunities around there I would say. kind of trying to think of others on the top of my head now and mine going...
Molly Wood
huh.
Molly Wood
Right, but if you are a founder, this is a good place to look for opportunities that aren't maybe obvious to everybody. Fascinating.
Eliot Brooks
I think so, yeah.
Yeah, I think so. Okay. So the other thing I'd say is that, you know, myself and my two co-founders, none of us came with years of experience in the steel or cement or concrete industries. And, you know, all from,
slightly different backgrounds, Will's an academic, Freddie's worked in, had worked in kind of climate tech engineering, but also on medical devices and kind of his insights from working on novel inhalation technologies as kind of part of the skillset that really helped in some of the technology development and then myself, background in building a business in the healthcare space. And so, you know, I think the biggest thing that helps you is a real passion to have an impact.
in the climate crisis and I wouldn't underestimate the transferability of skills. know, people who have been operators, company builders, engineers in completely different capacities to really have an impact.
Molly Wood
love that. That's wonderful. And then finally, before I let you go, where did the name come from?
Eliot Brooks
okay. So, two reasons. One, the OCO, so CO2, all about CO2 reduction. But then the other is this idea of cocooning something. And I always have to tell this story and it's a little bit embarrassing, but hopefully like most people, we thought that a cocoon is what a caterpillar goes into to become a butterfly. So it's this idea of transforming a waste material into...
Molly Wood
huh.
Eliot Brooks
maybe not as beautiful as a butterfly, you know, this great product. So that was kind of where we landed on Cocoon, but it turns out that a Cocoon is what a moth comes out of. And actually a butterfly comes from a chrysalis. So maybe we should have renamed the company chrysalis.
Molly Wood
Dang, we have all learned so much here today. I mean, I will tell you that I have heard those two words and I just would have thought they were somewhat interchangeable.
Eliot Brooks
You
Eliot Brooks
Yep.
Molly Wood
Well, thank God that me and everybody else asked this question at the end because this is the trivia part of the podcast, everyone.
Eliot Brooks
Yeah, there is a little mic drop moment for you.
Molly Wood
Boom. Elliot Brooks, we're gonna leave it there. Thank you so much for the time.
Eliot Brooks
Awesome, thank you for having me.
Molly Wood Voice-Over:
That's it for this episode of Everybody in the Pool. Thank you so much for listening. I love this company and this concept for so many reasons it points to how we have to think of systems instead of just one-off solutions and also the obvious reality that an action creates a reaction and every one of those is also an opportunity for creativity and innovation and ingenuity all of which we need now more than ever.
Email me your thoughts and suggestions to in at everybody in the pool dot com and find all the latest episodes and more at everybody in the pool dot com, the website. And if you want to become a subscriber and get an ad free version of the show, hit the link in the description in your podcast app of choice.
Thank you to those of you who already have. See you next week.