Episode 15 Transcript: Who’s in the Pool at Mill

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Welcome to Everybody in the Pool, the podcast for the climate economy. We dive deep into the climate crisis and come up with solutions. I'm your host, Molly Wood.

This week … something a little different. As you know, a couple weeks ago, I talked with Matt Rogers, the Apple pioneer, co-founder of Nest. Now he and Harry Tannenbaum … who was also at Nest and led hardware development at Google … have co-founded Mill … a climate startup that makes a kitchen compost appliance.

Well, it just so happens that I got to spend some extra time with the Mill team … finding out how they ended up working in climate … at this company specifically … and how they think about making impact … in the climate solutions space.

Think of this episode as sort of an extended version of The Job Board … and I hope you feel inspired that almost no matter what you're doing … there's probably a climate solutions company that could use your skills … and there's definitely a way to inject MORE climate thinking … into the job you're already doing.

I have THREE guests today … each with a different path … to wanting to work in climate. Starting here …

Lou Pia: 

my name is Lou Pia. I work, uh, on policy mainly, uh, federal policy, um, but a little bit of everything. And I've been at Mill for about two and a half years now.

Luseni … or Lou … had a long and very impressive career working on environmental issues in government … which he'll tell us about in a bit here … before moving into private industry … to try to have a different type of impact … that *might be … a little … faster and more efficient.

Molly Wood:

And then tell me how you ended up there, because your background is, it looks like a lot of government.

Yeah,

tell me, tell me, gimme a little bit of the origin story here. Journey to mill.

Lou Pia:

yeah. Journey to Mill. Well, I mean, um, you know, it, it, um, know, I, I guess about three years ago I ended up meeting Matt and Harry, our co-founders, through, um, Uh, a former coworker of mine from the Obama administration, uh, who I lived down in Southern California, he's in Southern California. He, he also happened to be, was an early, early investor in Mill.

And, um, I, the way he, he said it to me is that, you know, Matt and Harry had really been, you know, at this early stage company working on sort of the issue of waste. Um, wasting climate and, you know, they really wanna bring on a policy person. And you know, what my buddy had said to me was like, you know, this is really a unique situation because typically startups don't bring on policy people like this early on.

Um, and, you know, kind of, he put us in contact and one thing led to the next, and you know, I was, I was pretty. You know, inspired by obviously the mission and the opportunity, the ability, the potential to be a part of building something. Um, but then also I just felt like Matt and Harry were like, good guys, right?

Like, I was like, you know, I'm at the point in my career where I, I can't be around, you know, folks that I just can't work with and truly collaborate with. I'm a real team oriented person and I just kind of got those vibes pretty early on. So, um, you know, really, I guess the rest, the rest was history.

Molly Wood:

So was that, um, so you were with the, I like how you humbly skipped past. Your long, amazing experience in the Obama administration. So talk about how you kind of ended up going private, like give us a little bit of the White House experience. I will not, by the way, I will not extrapolate from what you said that everybody in government is really hard to work with, that's definitely the vibe I get.

Lou Pia:

Um, yeah, you know, government was, was fun and amazing. I mean, you know, I, um, so I mean, I guess even like maybe kind of taking a bit, even a step back further, I mean, I ended up, um, my, I. Ended up in the Obama administration because I ended up leaving a law firm where I was practicing environmental law, um, back in 2011.

And I was really bullish on, uh, then President Obama and he was having a pretty tough time. And so I left my firm and I jumped on his campaign pretty early during that cycle and, uh, had an amazing sort of like life changing experience working in.

I felt my, my environmental law practice was at the time and, uh, that, that took me to DC um, where I was really fortunate to be able to like, you know, leverage my environmental legal experience and jump into the E P A. I had a couple of roles. I finished up as deputy Chief of staff to former administrator Gina McCarthy, and spent time in the White House.

And, and, and really honestly, I, I worked on a bunch of . Issues that were thorny and hard and not that sexy, kind of like food waste. Um, I, I, you know, I was kind of dealing with environmental justice issues and EPAs Office of Civil Rights that had a, a long track record of a lot of problems, um, a lot of challenges and not really not being that effective.

Um, I, I spent almost a year on the ground in Flint responding to the water crisis. I, I did work on some food waste issues while I was there. Um, You know, I think that, like when I think about my transition, um, my transition to mill and like why it was really interesting to me. I mean, obviously I met, uh, this friend of mine, uh, while we were in administration and he kind of connected us, but like I.

There were just so many issues at E P A when I was at E P A, climate was the big focus, but there were all these other issues that were really important as well that I kind of thought were overlooked and, and interestingly, I mean I think food waste was, was one of the issues I worked on that like I thought had the potential to drive a lot of impact.

For climate and for communities. Um, but it wasn't really at the top of the priority list. And so, you know, to me, um, Matt and Harry, to hear the hear about their vision, to me it really clicked and really resonated as a real opportunity to like continue to, to kind of work on the types of issues that I'd worked on in the past and also to kind of leverage some of the experience I had obviously in government, um, previously.

So it.

Yeah.

Really, really excited and kind of made sense.

Molly Wood:

So let me go all the way back to what made you want to practice environmental law in the first place? What got you interested in this sector?

Lou Pia:

Yeah, man. You know, it's funny, I just spoke to a group of high schoolers this week and talking about my career journey. Um, and, um, you know, so, you know, I'm from, um, born in Detroit. Grew up in the Detroit area, mom's retired Detroit public school teacher. Grew up, uh, in a household that cared about issues, cared about issues relating to my community, cared about politics, um, and activism and like those were like the. The dinner table conversations. And so, um, and those were issues I cared about for my whole life. Um, and, you know, I. Distinctly even remember going to my mom's school to like help like load her classroom. And you know, her, her, the elementary school at the time that she worked at on the east side of Detroit was like surrounded by abandoned buildings, um, abandoned factories, right?

Like sort of the remnants of like a dying industry, uh, you know, early nineties, Detroit. And, um, I remember thinking to myself like, man, what's the impact of this? Right? Like, this is crazy. Like the time I was going to school in Ann Arbor, we'd moved out of the city and it, it just was like, you know, what is the impact of on this?

I wasn't thinking about anything having to do with the environment. I. So fast forward, um, I still care about these issues through college and, uh, law school, um, trying to figure out what I want to focus on once I graduate. My last semester of law school, I took environmental law and it was like that class that made me realize that like there was this whole body of love that I completely took for granted.

I had no association with, like being an environmentalist. Like these weren't like issues. These weren't my, I didn't believe these to be my issues. Right. But I took environ, I've took this class and I realized, wow, there's this whole body of love that impacts the built environment. It impacts health and safety.

It impacts sort of the ability to learn. And I kind of, you know, it, it, it sort of, Made it clear and what I realize now, sort of the intersectional nature of environmentalism, um, it's such an envir, intersectional issue. And so I, I kind of left that class thinking, wow, this is really interesting and this is really cool, and actually this body of luck and impact issues that I care about in a way that I had no clue.

And so I kind of went back to school and got my L L M in Environmental Law and Policy and was fortunate to land at a law firm where I was practicing environmental law and kind of, you know, the rest was kind of history in terms of like working on these issues and in this space.

Molly Wood:

Um, say more about it's intersectional. I think there is increasingly, I mean, I would argue maybe only over the last Half dec, decade plus that there's sort of a, a really broad awareness of equity and justice as it relates to environmentalism and the fact that, like you said, this is about community.

This is about where factories get cited, where freeways end up

Yeah.

where pollution does and does not get cleaned up.

Lou Pia:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just think that, you know, um, The built environment impacts everything, right? It impacts jobs. It in terms it impacts health. It impacts what you think or what you believe to be possible. And I think that like, um, but, but, but you know, it's often. I think more often, especially in sort of, you know, my lived experiences in some of the communities I came from, the environment is like the, is not the issue that smacks you most directly in the face on a regular basis.

Right? It's the jobs. It's sort of like I have asthma. It's um, You know, I have this sort of perpetual stench in the neighborhood that I live in, or I'm like constantly being sort of, you know, bothered by, um, by, by, by larger diesel trash trucks that are running through my neighborhood, right? Like, I think it, it's, it's sort of these impacts, but they're, but they're grounded in sort of issues that relate to the environment in a way that like people don't really think about.

And so, um, So I, you know, I don't know. I think it's a really complicated topic and I, and I understand why, why it's so difficult. Um, and actually thinking about even why I decided to come and why, one of the first things I think I said to Matt and Harry, uh, before I joined was like, you know, this is, I was actually coming off of working on the, the Biden Harris transition, the e p A agency Review team that kind of like, you know, drops into the agency during a transition.

You assess the landscape, you kind of figure out what the policy priorities are and you kind of get the incoming new leadership to, you know, be able to get up to speed as quickly as possible. And so, you know, one of the things that happened during that experience is, um, We, we interview a lot of both internal and external interviewed.

You know, there's kind of this tension between, you know, people think about they treat kind of climate justice and environmental justice differently. Like climate is its own thing. And, and, and I think in the, in, in, in the case of some folks, um, in some communities, like the pursuit of like reducing, these are all like really important things by the way, right?

Like reducing emissions from landfills and . From mobile sources, like these are really, really important, but sometimes it feels like it's at the expense of sort of the legacy pollutants and contaminants that are like plaguing the community and maybe even more impactful on the day-to-day existence of most folks.

And I think there's just like this interesting tension, like these two issues are like completely related. But they're kind of treated separately. Right. And I even saw it in my time in government. You had air people, right? And you had non-air people and they were kind of separately kind of doing their things.

But you know, what's exciting about, I think the food waste issue is just, there's like such a direct connection between okay, you know, uh, food and. You know, the impact that can have on the climate, but like we also understand where this material is currently going and, you know, there the real impacts to communities, um, to water quality, to, you know, uh, just sort of the overall quality of life that, uh, that people are living through.

And so, uh, I was really excited about kind of the opportunity to work on that type of problem.

Molly Wood:

That's super interesting that it's like a, it's more of a one-to-one connection as opposed to like, , I'm not, I know you don't have drinkable water, but I'm really gonna have to ask you to get solar

Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

like . It's a behavior change that also has this immediate impact.

yeah,

Molly Wood:

Yep. Okay. So talk to me about the, the public to private.

Kind of pathway and what you think policy can do and can't do that maybe, you know, private enterprise can do better.

Lou Pia:

Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, and honestly, it's one of the most challenging. I mean, I think kind of the, the, it's a challenging transition, um, especially coming to an early age, early stage startup. I mean, I think that one, I, I wanted to join Mill because. I, I think one of my experiences, one of my big takeaways from my time in government is like the, the important role that private industry has on, in, on addressing these sorts of issues.

Um, and so I just thought it'd be a really great opportunity to be a part of building something from really an early, a very early stage. Um, you know, I think that, you know, I've learned that it's policy and government are like on two separate tracks, like policy is. If you're, you're going someplace and you get in your car, it's like taking the street route and then, you know, being here in the government, it's like being in the H O V lane, right on the freeway.

And it's like, that's the challenge, right? The challenge is that like they work on very different timeframes, they have very different constructs. Um, you know, government has to be slow. It needs to be slow because these are public resources, right? We need to be really mindful how. And it's hard to kind of reconcile again, just sort of the pace that these two separate entities are working at.

Um, and I. I think that, that, that is the challenge. So I've grown to kind of appreciate the ability to be really nimble and to deploy, um, technology quickly and resources quickly, and sort of just the pace of change and impact or deployment, I think is just so different than what you deal with in government.

But, you know, I think that government has a very different objective and it's not. Only the private interest. Right. I think it's also sort of what are the community interests or a ton of stakeholders that you have to consider in making decisions. And you know, again, like, you know, you could think about just some of the tensions, I mean, of, you know, um, um, you know, I'm, uh, like, you know, you know, every action has a reaction and oftentimes they're unintentioned.

You know, unintentional impacts and like government's job is to like minimize those unintentional impacts and it takes time. And I think that's something that you don't necessarily have to think about if you're a private company. And, um, and that's not what you're charged to do. And so I think, um, so I think there's a really important role for both entities and, you know, I think, um, there's a lot to learn.

Both entities can learn, learn something from, from the other as well.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, I think there are plenty of people who would say that they wish the tech industry writ large, not mill specifically, would give a little more thought to unintended consequences.

Yeah.

there

Yeah, no, for sure.

Molly Wood:

What is the policy part of the job? What and 'cause like you said, it is unusual for companies, even companies who have a much more obvious policy, kind of impact.

Yeah.

It is still unusual for startups to bring on policy people earlier, like, what's your job?

Lou Pia:

Yeah. So I mean, I think, you know, one part of my job is still, um, education and awareness, right? I think generally like You know, there's, there's a privilege segment of the society that understands the impacts loss and waste on the climate. Like, I don't think there's still enough of a kind of an association or an understanding about like, the impact of food loss in waste, um, on climate.

And so I think there's still work to be done. Um, and, and in addition, I think what's also really interesting about this problem and sort of the mill and why I'm excited is. Electric vehicles or solar, solar panels, like I think everybody has like a direct relationship with food and with waste and that creates a real opportunity.

Um, and it also is sort of the reason why I think I. This is still a really, really hard issue, but it's kind of like low hanging fruit. Like I think this is something that like with the right type of focus and investment, we could like really move the needle on. And so, um, so I think that just generally sort of the outreach and education is still like really, really important.

And then I think it's like the first component of a policy work. I think to get a little more granular, I think that, you know, one of the things that we know is that, um, you know, waste is managed at the state and local level. Um, We know that it costs money to be able to kind of manage those materials, um, and to do really innovative things with those materials.

And so, you know, I think from a policy perspective, and you know, we're, we're, we're fortunate to be kind of be living in a, in a really unique and historic time. But like, you know, I think this is about at the federal level, really trying to help to kind of shake loose money that will go to state and local jurisdictions to be able to more effectively manage. Organic, organic materials and, and, and, uh, and obviously helping to divert those materials from landfills. So the Inflation Reduction Act is a really great example of, of this. Um, you know, there, there, there aren't a ton of programs that directly relate to I think organics, but there are some, um, the infrastructure Act.

It was recently passed as well. Infrastructure law, I should say also is a really good example. And there are a handful of programs that were funded, um, through that, through that law that also I think really do a good job of like providing funding opportunities to state and local jurisdictions to be able to scale, um, infrastructure to manage.

Waste generally, but also organics. And I think, I think, you know, e p A and any Biden administration's doing a good job of thinking about inno innovative approaches, um, to kind of address some of those issues. So I think that's a big, big pa part of this, um, that, you know, I think. Kind of relates to, relates to mail, but I think some subpoints are just, you know, we view ourselves as, as, as infrastructure.

We view ourselves as sort of distributed infrastructure that's really novel and innovative and different, but like nonetheless infrastructure. And so, you know, from a policy perspective, you know, we're trying to engage and think about ways to kind of make that more clear and to increase that sort of association because that'll help deploy these devices.

And also hopefully, you know, uh, you know, Deploy these devices in dense, in dense ways, but also in ways that hopefully help to promote a bit more equity as well.

Ok … so now I know you're not all former deputy chiefs of staff for the E-P-A during the Obama administration … so we're going to take a quick break … when we come back … we'll talk to two of Mill's younger employees … who are coming at this tech solution … from the tech side of things.

Welcome back to Everybody in the Pool … where we're doing an extended job board episode … looking at people who shifted their careers into climate … or in the case of Lou Pieh … shifted from government solutions … to private industry.

Next up … two young tech employees … who found mission and purpose … in their current jobs.

Hannah Parenteau:

I'm Hannah Parenteau, I'm a firmware engineer at Mill.

I've been with Mill about four months, so I'm pretty new. I'm still still learning everything. Um, but I, I feel like I've been able to come in and like immediately jump in and get stuff done, which has been really exciting.

I think I've been interested in, in climate, uh, pretty much my whole life. I don't remember a time that it wasn't something I cared about. You know, I was trying to start recycling programs at my middle school and like doing volunteer work in conservation. But, um, when I went to college and discovered, you know, firmware, it's cool.

So, uh, as, as the name suggests a little bit, firmware is kind of right in between software and hardware. So what that means is it's, it's code that's very specifically, uh, applicable to the hardware that it's running on. So unlike something that's maybe like a, a mobile application that could run on a bunch of different phones, firmware is something that's like very closely tied to the set of, of sensors or actuators or, um, you know, uh, aspects of a certain device.

I, I get to write code that, you know, makes things happen, um, in the real world. Uh, so I, I went into that and. Uh, struggled for, for a while to find a position that kind of matched that technical engineering interest with something that actually felt impactful in the climate space. So, um, I spent a while working in, uh, electric vehicle technology, which felt sort of adjacent, but I think there's, there's like a huge issue around transportation and whether more vehicles, even if they're cleaner, is actually the right solution.

I'm just personally a very big proponent of public transportation and I think that that, uh, expanding public transportation infrastructure is gonna be just a much more effective way to, you know, get cars off the road and get emissions efficiency, uh, better in transporting people all over the place.

So I just personally found kind of this tension of this isn't the solution that I actually want to be in place for.

Um, And most recently I worked in, uh, a large consumer electronics company, um, working on, on devices that felt very socially impactful. You know, it's useful to have phones and computers, they're great communication devices. But, um, ran into something that I, I think you talked about on your, uh, your I Fixit episode, uh, where, you know, we're trying to get people to buy a new phone every year. And even if the re the materials are recycled, um, it feels like such a big impact of just producing new stuff all the time.

So, uh, yeah. When I, when I found out about Mill, it felt like really an awesome balance of a technology that's truly impactful that I think could really make a difference and that needs my technical skillset.

I think there's something about the mission and something about the thoughtfulness going into the whole lifecycle of the mill device. . Um, so on the mission side, uh, I was sort of vaguely aware of like food waste, it's a problem, methane emissions. Um, but I think, you know, I kind of was great.

I'll, I'll do backyard composting and that'll be, you know, doing my lifestyle part. Um, but it wasn't until I interviewed with Male that I kind of got a little more of the, the sense of scale of that problem and that like, household food waste is the biggest contributor. Um, To food waste and landfills. Um, so I think I, I got a good understanding of sort of the problem, and it's such a specific problem to try to solve that, that's really compelling of like, there's a very, very clear goal.

Um, and then on the device side, you, you're right, it is still a thing that we're making. Um, but I think what's particularly interesting about Mill's approach from an engineering perspective is, We're not trying to sell a device and then sell somebody a newer version of that same device a year later.

What we're selling is a service that helps address food waste in a household.

I grew up in California, we have wildfire season, we have, you know, concerns about flooding in, in some places and just seeing directly the, uh, the like real physical impacts of, of climate change is certainly part of the, the spark. Um, and I think. to, to add onto that, knowing that there are things, easy adjustments to make, like recycling, um, that society wasn't necessarily adopting, felt like, okay, here's this really specific thing. We know that it works, you know, I could personally make a change to try to get that adopted. Um, so it's always felt like a, a common thread of like, whatever I can do, even if it's small, is worth doing.

And finally … another young tech worker … who went looking for climate jobs … pretty much straight out of college.

Max Ogryzko:

My name is Max Ogryzko. I am a software engineer at Mill.

So, um, out of college I wanted to do something climate related. Um, but I was having some trouble finding, uh, climate roles, I think as a first job.

I was looking for more like computer vision related roles. 'cause that's what I studied in college. So that's sort of like how robots see, like how, um, autonomous cars kind of navigate the world. Um, so there were some things, uh, Related to that, like a couple companies around, um, like once a disaster occurs, can we, you know, build up a data set of like Google Street view photos to see, um, and like estimate, uh, the damage that would occur if like a flood occurred in a specific area.

Um, stuff like that. Um, or, uh, there's another com, a company that's, um, like carbon accounting. Um, they use computer vision to, uh, track. Whether like people that are using forest growth as uh, carbon credits are actually doing that. Um, or just like the quality of the, uh, carbon offsets, um, stuff like that. Um, so I think there weren't a ton with, uh, that specific, you know, computer vision role.

Um, In general, I sort of had a, I mean, I think just as a senior you submit like 150 applications and uh, then you get like two interviews and you're just like, oh, I'm so unqualified. Like, nobody wants me, like, stuff like that.

You also, it's, it's hard, um, you don't want to be greenwashing and you don't wanna work for a place that is greenwashing.

Um, and I think that that's one of the hardest things when you're like looking for a role. Like this is like everyone. Things, I mean, obviously you could work for Tesla or something. Um, but a lot of places it's, it's way more iffy on whether they actually, um, are doing anything good.

I lived in two places in Utah. One was in Pleasant Grove, Utah, which is like right by B Y U, um, and Provo, uh, which was an interesting spot for sure. Um, but I would do weekend trips down to Moab, um, which is sort of like an outdoors town, uh, in southern Utah. Um, and I remember on one of the trips, I got a call from one of my roommates.

Um, so I thought, why don't I just go, uh, to Utah, uh, be a. Software engineer there. I can do some climbing and mountain biking and skiing and stuff.

Um, and worked at a company called Qualtrics for around two years.

That there was, uh, like a forest fire that was right by our house. Um, and I remember hearing about like evacuations being needed and, and stuff like that, uh, sort of while I was in my tent. Um, and that just how eerie of an experience that was to just know that all o f this, all of my things in my home were at risk because of this thing that I couldn't control.

Um, that was solely just because, uh, It just got overly hot in Utah, and, and nobody expected to get that hot. Uh, we didn't really have like, protections in place for it. Um, that, that was my first year, um, my second year. It, it didn't end up, um, like reaching my home or anything. Everything was fine. Um, the second year, uh, I went on a camping, another camping trip, and as we were driving back, For some reason we just decided to turn on the radio, which we never did.

And uh, the radio was just talking. It was sort of this frantic, like, uh, this crazy fire is happening in Lambs Canyon and I didn't know what Lambs Canyon was. Um, but it was sort of like local news. And I remember getting out of my friend's truck and just like turning to the left and there's just this like enormous plume of smoke, just like right over the hill from our house.

And I was like, oh, that's probably what Lamb Canyon is. It's like, uh, A, a couple miles from, from my house. Um, and at that point I lived in. Park City, um, which is sort of more remote. And I, I lived in a specific part of Park City called Summit Park, um, that is especially remote. It's probably like 20 miles away from the resort.

Um, and we lived in a house that was kind of the last house, uh, before. Um, just like the wilderness, basically. There were some mountains behind us. Um, we had like moose come and hang out in our backyard all the time. Um, like sometimes I would be like trying to go to work and then, uh, I'd have to like run to my car because there's just like a moose and her daughter just like in the, uh, neighbor's front yard or something.

Um, but yeah, see this huge plume of smoke. Um, and then sort of like notice how everyone in the neighborhood, uh, was. Uh, was acting, which we didn't really notice before. Um, and there's just kind of this weird frantic sense of like, like, shoot, like is this, how big of a deal is this? Like, it seemed pretty big on the radio.

Um, so we were like, should we, like, we started looking at Twitter, uh, we're like, what are updates on this? Um, we're like, okay, we should, probably should start like packing up our things. I mean, we're like the first house that this fire would hit. Um, and so we started doing that. Um, and then maybe like, 20 or 30 minutes later, we just get like a really frantic knock on our door and it's like the police and they're like, you have 20 minutes, um, to get out of your house, like pack up your things.

We're evacuating this neighborhood. Like this is not a joke. Um, which was crazy. And, uh, this, uh, fire, I mean, I think this state of Utah to, you know, get some, uh, firefighters from out of state to come, uh, it was kind of this whole, they had to close off part of the highway. Um, It was a whole thing. Um, and I, I think it took like a week, uh, before we could actually come back to our, um, house.

So that happened. Um, and also I think that same summer, um, my hometown of Seattle got up to, I, I think it was like 106 degrees or, or something like that, which, um, obviously I grew up there. That's completely unheard of. Normally it would be like 85, like 90 would be crazy in Seattle. So like 1 0 6 is just absurd.

Um, and I don't know, uh, I think seeing Seattle get up to 1 0 6 and then this fire where I was like, my home is a danger, and this is like a consistent thing, you know, like the first time it's weird, but then, uh, when it's a consistent thing, you're like, okay, this is like this thing that I wanted to work on.

This is happening now, and it's like directly affecting me. Um, and I'd always been like, oh, I should build up my, you know, resume so I can, uh, get like a better position, have more impact and, and stuff. And I just realized I have to do this now. And so, um, I started to look into a bunch of climate related, um, companies and, um, my, my mom is, uh, a, she's a soil scientist at University of Washington.

And, um, this dude, Harry Tanenbaum hit her up for, uh, some advice on how to sort of like break into the scene. Um, uh, he's like a co-founder of Mill. And so that's sort of how, um, I knew about the company. And, and so sort of having my, my mother be in this industry sort of being like, these people are doing something cool, um, I like believe in this and my, um, my peers do as well, um, was definitely like, A big thing for me to, to take the jump.

Whatever it takes … am I right?

That's it for this episode of Everybody in the Pool … about people who are doing the work … because the problem … no matter what anybody tries to tell you … is real. And you can join them … in the pool … at work … at home … at play … anywhere you are.

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